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Cloud Hosted Servoy App with Existing DBF Data/FoxFire! Reporting January 25, 2012 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
Ken Levy will be back as a presenter at the LA Servoy/Fox meeting scheduled for Wed January 25th at 7:30pm. Ken will be presenting remote, for the first time, with Skype video webcam and screen sharing. Our goal is to have this meeting as interactive and informative as a normal in-person presenter meeting. Ken will be doing cool demos from the recent Servoy webinars below. Cloud Hosted Servoy App with Existing DBF Data Description: Ken Levy, former Visual FoxPro Product Manager ...

Multi-threading January 19, 2012 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Thursday, January 19, 2012 Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents: 1) "Multi-threading" - by Paul Mrozowski of White Light Computing Paul and a group of other geeks at Southwest Fox were inspired by Kevin Ragsdale's and Jody Meyer's sessions on multi-threading. Paul is going to share some of the results of this inspiration. 2) Anything else people want to talk about. We are always looking for volunteers and topics. Meeting Place Holiday Inn Express - Southfield 25100 Nort...

We Don't Need No Source Control January 17, 2012 20:00
MadFox: Madison WI FoxPro Users Group
...which of course means you DO need Source Control. And a good choice for FoxPro developers is the VFPX tool called "SubFox". We'll walk through setting up an existing project on SubFox from start to finish, and the workflow for multiple developers to use it to their best advantage.

Bob Pierce on displaying status info January 10, 2012 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
Bob Pierce will demonstrate building a small VFP project that can be used to display status info and data that is simple to build yet has a modern App/Gadget feel using just basic VFP controls and classes. If there is time he will discuss his recent adventures in bar-coding and lot control and some of the issues he ran into as well as the advantages it has delivered already and future planned enhancements.

Member Presentations / Q&A January 10, 2012 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
At the January meeting we will have member presentations. Tom Druffel will show his database update utility. After that it will be open mic for anyone who has some new achievements to show or problems that need help. Many of us don't get enough collective consideration of our work -- think of January as a chance for some code review. Bill Drew will let the group peek into a couple things he's been working on. Note: Because of Wacker Drive reconstruction, the ONLY access 200 S Wacker w...

LiveCode Demonstration December 20, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
"LiveCode", a simple, object oriented, fast, multi platform development system. Write one source, then compile for Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android, with no changes, ( except those that are platform specific). I will show how to write a simple application on a macBook, and run it as part of the development system, (for debugging), run it as a standalone app, save one of the compiled files to a thumb drive and offer it for someone to run, and deploy it to an iPad or iPhone, (or both).

"Unit Testing" and "Developer Tools" December 15, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Thursday, December 15, 2011 Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents: 1) "Unit Testing in Visual FoxPro" - by Paul Mrozowski of White Light Computing Paul will be talking about his experiences with unit testing in VFP and will show some code that can automatically generate stub code for unit tests. 2) "Developer Tools" - by Dale Zimmer of Innovative Programming Systems Dale has a couple of cool tools he wants to share with the DAFUG group to help do a better job of serving your ...

Bind events for better applications December 13, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
At first glance, the BindEvent() function may seem unnecessary. After all, why bind to an event when you can just write code in the event's method? In this session, we'll look at why BindEvent() and its cousins, the Access and Assign methods, are so valuable. Using examples drawn from real applications, we'll see how event binding lets you do things you couldn't otherwise do, and simplifies code for other tasks. We'll also talk about the difficulties involved in debugging code that uses event...

Jody Meyer speaks on Parallel Fox and PDF Output December 13, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
Our December meeting features Jody Meyer, a Fox Expert from Grand Rapids who has presented at SouthWest Fox for the past three years. She has an infectious enthusiasm and great teaching style. Her presentations: 1) Wanted: More Processing Speed! (ParallelFox) 2) It's Easy and It's Green - PDF Output

Effective Data Visualization: The Ideas Of Edward Tufte November 17, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Thursday, November 17, 2011 Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents: 1) "Effective Data Visualization: The Ideas Of Edward Tufte", by David Giard. We spend much of our time collecting and analyzing data. That data is only useful if it can be displayed in a meaningful, understandable way. Yale professor Edward Tufte presented many ideas on how to effectively present data to an audience or end user. In this session, David will explain some of Tufte’s most important guidelines about ...

Multithreaded VFP November 15, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
Bill Anderson will show two techniques for using multi-threaded VFP sessions in your applications. One solution will be through DMult.DLL, created by Christof Wollenhaupt. The second solution involves using ParallelFox on the VFP Codeplex site. Both of these ideas were presented at the 2011 Southwest Fox conference. Splitting multiple processes across multiple threads can dramatically increase the performance of your VFP applications. This is really cool! Also, we'll be reviewing the rece...

Southwest Fox Conference Recap November 15, 2011 17:30
MadFox: Madison WI FoxPro Users Group
Tonight's meeting will be a brain dump from the members who made it down to the most awesome Southwest Fox conference, to the less fortunate. We'll share the tips and tricks we learned and discuss the future of FoxPro conferences. Afterwards we'll set up an agenda for topics to cover in 2012 based on members' interests. Bring your Q&A! There will be door prizes, such as a free month of online training from PluralSight (awesome). 5:30p - 8:00p Tuesday, November 15th, 2011 G...

Conference Review, plus Tools We Love November 8, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
This month, we'll review Southwest Fox and the DevConnections conference being held this week in Las Vegas. Then, we'll continue our ongoing conversation about tools we use. Plan to share information about one tool you love.

Short Subjects by Members November 8, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
Come out Tuesday Nov 8 at for demonstrations by Patrick O'Hara (SQL Server stored procedures), Tom Druffel (Database Update Utility), and Randy Bosma (FoxCharts and Highlights from Arizona). We will be in the Executive conference room at Tech Nexus. To RSVP, simply email bill.drew@sbcglobal.net and he will forward the names to Tech Nexus.

Thor and PEME October 18, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
There are a number of valuable tools that are available in other development environments, but are sadly lacking in FoxPro's own IDE. For some time, there has been a considerable effort afoot to expand the list of IDE tools by reproducing (where possible) the tools from other IDEs (such as Visual Studio), by building on and enhancing existing tools, and by creating brand new tools appropriate to FoxPro. The most visible of these new tools is named Thor. Thor is a tool for managing add-on to...

October DoubleHeader: Lightswitch for VFP Devs / JS Framework shootout October 18, 2011 17:30
MadFox: Madison WI FoxPro Users Group
October's MadFox Meeting will have 2 parts: We'll start at Geeks and Gurus Madison HQ, where Eric Selje will be rehearsing his Southwest Fox session, "Flip the Switch: LightSwitch for VFP Developers." Lightswitch is Microsoft's latest development tool and it is aimed squarely at the same market who may have considered Visual FoxPro in the past. Lightswitch creates beautiful Silverlight applications which can run on Windows or the Web (and theoretically Linux too). "JavaScript Framework...

Want: More Processing Speed! - Southwest Fox Rehearsal October 13, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Thursday, October 13 , 2011 Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents a Southwest Fox Rehearsal: 1) "Want: More Processing Speed!" by Jody Meyer ParallelFox is the brain-child of Joel Leach. Joel has made parallel processing easier and more approachable for all VFP developers by developing this powerful tool. Jody will walk you through the main components of ParallelFox and demonstrate the basics. She will then show you how you might be able to apply ParallelFox to real-world proces...

Eric Selje on Lightswitch: Turn On the Light! October 11, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
One of our favorite presenters, Eric Selje is coming in from Madison to practice his Southwest Fox Conference presentation. Here is Eric's topic description: Lightswitch is Microsoft's latest development tool and it is aimed squarely at the same market who may have considered Visual FoxPro in the past. Lightswitch creates beautiful Silverlight applications which can run on Windows or the Web (and theoretically Linux too). If you're creating CRUD applications for databases, you should defin...

Southwest Fox Preview: Boosting Your Client Server Application Using Stored Procedures October 11, 2011 18:30
Philadelphia VFP User Group
Stored procedures can be essential to an efficient client server application. Stored procedures provide a great many potential benefits including more efficient processing of certain operations, front-end-independent operation (which can be especially useful if your database is being accessed by both a desktop and a web based application) and more. But stored procedures come at a cost too. Stored procedures are back end specific and they also require a little different way of thinking about y...

Using Servoy As An Application September 20, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
Special guest speaker Jeff Spalla of ReelData will present and overview with demos on how they use Servoy as an application for assisting in editing the production of TV shows in Hollywood. This meeting will be fun and interactive for anyone in the L.A. area interested in or currently using Servoy -- either as a new development platform, or as a great additional tool and skill set to compliment Visual FoxPro or other development tools. Also to be discussed is plans for upcoming L.A. Servoy user ...

Fox on the Run: SW Fox Preview #2 September 20, 2011 17:03
MadFox: Madison WI FoxPro Users Group
Fox on the Run: Developing Native Mobile Apps w/ a FoxPro Back-End Tonight Eric Selje will give MadFox another rehearsal of his "Fox on the Run"SW Fox Session. It's not possible to write Visual FoxPro applications for your mobile devices, but that doesn't mean you can't write applications for your mobile devices that use Visual FoxPro. By creating FoxPro-driven web services, you can create web applications that tap your business logic and data easily. But the big WOW is that you can compil...

Working with Remote Data the 'VFP Way': Upsizing to SQL Server Without Redesigning Your Application September 13, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
We're providing dinner before this meeting (6:30 PM). If you plan to come for dinner, please email tamar@tamargranor.com. Ask any developer who has migrated a FoxPro application to SQL Server and almost every one of them will tell you that you need to rethink the way your application works: No more Browse windows, no more record navigation buttons, no more XBASE style mentality. In other words, not only do you need to re-code your application for the actual data handling, you also need to re-...

Borup and Selje to rehearse SWFox sessions September 13, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
We have two excellent speakers at ChicagoFUDG for September. First, Rick Borup will describe Mercurial, a distributed version control system (DVCS) well suited for use with Visual FoxPro application development. Although DCVSs are based on a decentralized model designed to facilitate team software development, Rick will show that they are also useful for the independent developer who is working solo. And right after a pizza break, Eric Selje who will give his very first runthrough of his...

Conference Rehearsal Double Header September 8, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) Double Header: 1) "Data Explorer changes in the works" - German DevCon Rehearsal by Rick Schummer Rick has been working on some changes for the Data Explorer and has some new extensions he will demonstrate in preparation for his session to be delivered in Germany this November. Rick is also planning a new Data Explorer release around the time of the conference. 2) "VFP Version Control with Mercurial" - Southwest Fox Rehearsal by Rick Borup Mercuria...

August 2011: Behold the Power of Thor! August 23, 2011 17:30
MadFox: Madison WI FoxPro Users Group
MadFox August 2011 Meeting Where: Geeks & Gurus, Madison Division1308 Spring St. Madison WI 53715 When: 5:30p-8p, August 23rd, 2011 Everyone Welcome! This month we're honored to have Jim Nelson preview his Southwest Fox session about his great development tool, Thor. This tool updates the Visual FoxPro IDE, giving it capabilities you didn't think possible. And the best part is that it's easily extendible as well, so if there's something you want VFP to do you can make it so.

Setting up and Optimizing a SQL Server Development Environment August 16, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
I will demo the basics of setting up a SQL development environment and how to optimize the local performance. I will highlight the potential traps and pitfalls. Most of the guidelines will apply to production environments as well.

To Boldly go Where no VFP'er Has Gone Before—the Tools of Thor August 11, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents a Southwest Fox Rehearsal: 1) "To Boldly go Where no VFP'er Has Gone Before—the Tools of Thor (Session I and 2)", by Jim Nelson. There are a number of valuable tools that are available in other development environments, but are sadly lacking in FoxPro's own IDE. For some time, there has been a considerable effort afoot to expand the list of IDE tools by reproducing (where possible) the tools from other IDEs (such as Visual Studio), by building o...

Tools and more tools August 9, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
Our topic this month is "Tools and more tools" and we're all the speakers. Please come prepared to discuss or demonstrate a tool you use that makes software development easier. It can be a VFP tool or a more general computing tool. It can be a one-trick pony or a great big game-changer. (While we won't force anyone to speak, the meeting will be more valuable, the more people share.)

Michael Hogan on FoxPro on the Web WITHOUT having FoxPro on the Web August 9, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
In the movie 'Enter the Dragon', Bruce Lee bragged about the 'Art of Fighting without Fighting' to an aggressive opponent - and defeated his opponent by using it. Michael Hogan, one of our own, will share 'FoxPro on the Web WITHOUT having FoxPro on the web'. Recent work has led him more and more to putting FoxPro data on the web without necessarily installing FoxPro on the server - using ASP/PHP includes, and AJAX data and display tools in conventional HTML pages. He says "The concept is simp...

Kick Start using Servoy 6 July 19, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
Launch meeting of the first official L.A. Servoy user group, hosted at the same location as the monthly LAFox.org user group meetings near LAX. This meeting will include free pizza and sodas. Special guest speaker Ken Levy (president of MashupX, LLC) will do demos on getting started with the new Servoy 6 with cool Servoy demos and no slides. This includes installing Servoy on Mac or Windows, touring around the installation directories and IDE in Eclipse, getting started tips and demos, codi...

Joins and Subqueries: Using SQL Commands for the Hard Stuff July 12, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
This month, the Philadelphia VFP User Group moves to our new meeting location in Room 158 of DeVry University, 1140 Virginia Drive, Fort Washington, PA. The folks at DeVry are letting us use the room for free; the only cost is that, at this first meeting, we'll hear briefly from a DeVry representative. Abstract: Writing simple SQL queries isn't hard to learn. But as soon as you need something a little more complex, you get tangled up in inner joins vs. outer joins and where to use a subquery ...

Leveraging VFP code in a Post-Fox world July 12, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
Our July 2011 Meeting will feature Brian Marquis who will lead a discussion of how his employer, QuotePro, is adapting to the current tech environment and leveraging a big base of VFP code into a post Fox world. Others also want to talk about strategies that they are pursuing. Bill Drew has a handout which he put together for our SQL Server meeting --- and then wasn't able to attend. We'll also talk about future plans and directions for our group.

Fox History: The Early Years June 21, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
Tom Rettig gave Richard Grossman his first big break in the xBase world, PC Week (later eWeek) later quoted Richard on the front page saying dBase was dead, David Fulton spent an entire day showing him FoxPro 1 - the first person outside the company to see it. Grossman wrote the Pro-Demo sample app that shipped on disk with FoxPro 1, and worked for Ashton-Tate, Fox Software, Borland, and Microsoft on their xBase products back in the day. That’s all public info - but did you know that Roger Cli...

June 2001: Modern Web Apps June 21, 2011 17:30
MadFox: Madison WI FoxPro Users Group
This month we have an(other) exciting meeting planned. We'll start at Salty Dog Solutions' World HQ for a general Q&A session from 5:30.-6:30, and Eric Selje will demo his Schema tool for Thor. Then we'll move over to the Essen Haus for food, beer, and a joint meeting with the MadMongers PERL user group. They will have a presentation by Dale Sande. Here is the abstract: HTML and CSS the last thing that you have to deal with in developing your apps? Do you have a hard time communicating wi...

Jim Nelson - the Tools of Thor (a VFPX project) June 14, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
Chicago FUDG's June meeting will feature a remote presentation from Jim Nelson -- the famous VFPX tool developer. Jim will outline the efforts afoot to expand the list of IDE tools by reproducing (where possible) the tools from other IDEs (such as Visual Studio), by building on and enhancing existing tools, and by creating brand new tools appropriate to FoxPro. The most visible of these new tools is named Thor, a tool for managing add-on tools in the IDE. He will start the session by showing ...

Open Mike Night June 9, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents: "Open Mike Night", by several presenters 1) The Open Mike night allows anyone to crack open their laptop and show something they are working on. For sure Rick Schummer is going to present an add-on he has created for Thor, Frank Perez is going to show off his latest incarnation of VFP2Text for Beyond Compare, Paul Mrozowski is going to give us some insight behind his 6502 Emulator written in .NET/WPF, and Jody Meyer has some SQL Server informat...

To boldly go where no VFP'er has gone before -- the Tools of Thor June 7, 2011 18:30
Philadelphia VFP User Group
This month, we will be joining with the Chicago FoxPro Users and Developers Group for a remote presentation by Jim Nelson titled "To boldly go where no VFP'er has gone before -- the Tools of Thor." Note the 6:30 PM start time. There are a number of valuable tools that are available in other development environments, but are sadly lacking in FoxPro's own IDE. For some time, there has been a considerable effort afoot to expand the list of IDE tools by reproducing (where possible) the tools from...

REAL Studio for VFP Developers May 12, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents: "REAL Studio for VFP Developers", by Kevin Cully and "Thor", by Jim Nelson 1) "REAL Studio for VFP Developers", by Kevin Cully of Cully Technologies REAL Studio is a cross-platform RAD tool that Fox developers can take to easily. In this session we are going to take an honest look at REAL Studio and see how it compares to Visual FoxPro. This session will take a long look at this tool, it's strengths and it's weaknesses. During this session y...

May Double-header: COM Servers and Sortable Grids May 10, 2011 20:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
Jim Walsh will present “An example of developing a COM server in VFP," which was carried over from our last meeting. Raymond Knight will present "Grid Column Header Sorting Made Easy." Jim's talk is entitled “An example of developing a COM server in VFP”. COM servers represent a good strategy for providing functionality that is needed by several programs written in different languages. Jim will describe the development of a COM server that provides access to the data in a Firebird database fo...

VFP/SQL Upsizing and Discussion May 10, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
Chicago FUDG topic for May 10th: "In May the SQL comes out of hibernation" by CFUDG member Jim Wiggins. Always a well organized presentation from Jim. In our tradition of group leadership, there is a role for anyone who wants to contribute in any way. Part I: "Upsizing FoxPro", an introduction to MS SQL Server and MySQL, including the Sedna Upsizing WIzard, Data Explorer and Cursor Adapter Builder. Part II: Real-world examples from members who have used these products for a while, includin...

Servoy Version 6 April 19, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
LAFox.org will host a special meeting on April 19th, a kick-off meeting for a new L.A. Servoy user group. This meeting will be sponsored by Servoy and will include free pizza, drinks, and more. This meeting will include special guest Ken Levy (president of MashupX, LLC) to discuss the latest news around Servoy, new cool Servoy demos, and to help moderate co-presenting with many other special guests. Jan Aleman, CEO of Servoy, and several others from Servoy will attend and participate. J...

Accessing VFP data from .NET April 14, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents: "Accessing VFP data from .NET", by Paul Mrozowski 1) Accessing VFP data from .NET is always a bit of a hassle. We'll take a look at the LINQ to VFP project from Codeplex to query VFP data from a .NET application via LINQ to see if it makes life any easier or not. 2) Jody Meyer is also going to share some of her favorite SQL Server resources. We are always looking for volunteers and topics. Holiday Inn Express - Southfield 25100 Northw...

April Double-header: Web applications and COM servers April 12, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
Garth Groft will a look at his adventures in moving an application to the Web. Jim Walsh will present “An example of developing a COM server in VFP”. Garth's presentation centers on an invoice payment application developed in two distinct VFP-based web servers, VFP2IIS and FoxInCloud. FoxInCloud utilizes West Wind Web Connect, Active Widgets and FoxInCloud's own unique Application Adapter Assistant. Jim's talk is entitled “An example of developing a COM server in VFP”. COM servers re...

Remote from Saskatchewan "Cool Controls" April 12, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
Doug Hennig will examine some controls you can add to your applications to provide a cleaner or fresher user interface. Controls discussed include a splitter, a combobox that drops down to a TreeView control, object-oriented Microsoft Office-like menus, a 100% VFP code date picker control, a control for displaying "balloon tips", and a modern-looking progress bar control. Same Time and Place -- Tech Nexus, 200 S Wacker Dr. Suite 1500 on Tuesday April 12 at 5:30 pm. Here is the RSVP for t...

Cool Controls & Ruby Double Feature April 12, 2011 17:30
MadFox: Madison WI FoxPro Users Group
Remote from Saskatchewan "Cool Controls" Doug Hennig will examine some controls you can add to your applications to provide a cleaner or fresher user interface. Controls discussed include a splitter, a combobox that drops down to a TreeView control, object-oriented Microsoft Office-like menus, a 100% VFP code date picker control, a control for displaying "balloon tips", and a modern-looking progress bar control. [If this sounds a lot like what ChicagFudg is doing, you're right. Thanks t...

Go-Global Demonstration March 15, 2011 22:30
Los Angeles Visual FoxPro Developers Group
A demonstration on how to web enable any 32bit (and with Go-Global v4 64 bit) Windows application.

A Quick Intro to LINQ for VFP Developers March 10, 2011 18:00
Detroit Area Fox User Group
Thursday, March 10, 2011 Detroit Area Fox User Group (DAFUG) presents: "A Quick Intro to LINQ for VFP Developers", by Paul Mrozowski Paul will be doing a quick tour of the IDE in Visual Studio, talk briefly about some of the tools available that make life in .NET nicer, then build a simple project. We’ll look at LINQ, lambdas and query expression syntax, how it’s used, and why you should care. Holiday Inn Express - Southfield 25100 Northwestern HWY Southfield, MI 48075 Small M...

Open Mike Night March 8, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
This month, we're having an open mike night, so please think of something to share with the group. It doesn't have to be much--a productivity tip, a book you think everyone should read, something cool you've done, or a question you need answered. (If you can't think of anything, please come anyway.) As always, we're looking for speakers for future meetings. If you have something to share, please let Bob Pierce (rpierce@smooth-on.com) know. It can take the whole meeting or be a shorter presen...

Tuvia Vinitsky on FoxinCloud March 8, 2011 18:30
Chicago FoxPro User/Developer Group
Since the dawn of the Internet, owners of useful and stable FoxPro applications have asked, "Isn't there some way to adapt my code to become an Internet application?" Tuvia Vinitsky recently wrote us, "I have been doing some prelim work with the FoxinCloud system, and, although I was not prepared to be, I am actually pretty excited about it. I was wondering if the group would be interested in me doing a topic on it?" We said: yes! The RSVP link is http://j.mp/geuWmw Check out the vid...

Sidebars--add customizable convenience for your users. February 8, 2011 19:00
Philadelphia VFP User Group
A customizable sidebar is a great way to give your users quick access to information and functionality to increase productivity. I will show some of the benefits of a sidebar as well as the technique I used to create a production sidebar using VFP. I will then discuss some of the things I learned and would do different if I were to build a sidebar from scratch today. In addition, Tamar Granor will give a presentation on preparing and giving presentations. In case of bad weather, we will po...